Home School Dads

Line


Spacespace
Message Boards
Stripes

space
Home School Dads
A Website for Fathers who Home School
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

climate discussions with children
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Home School Dads Forum Index -> Science
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: climate discussions with children Reply with quote

As global warming creeps into our lives, I am curious how other homeschool dads have addressedd the issue. I have, to this point done little more than explain that we as a family must make wiser choices about when we need to use transportation and electricity. I have also had brief discussions with our son tying rampant consumption to the problem in an effort to get our son to understand that we should address our needs first, and our wants if we limit our carbon footprint in the process. We have also downsized our house by 50 % in our last move, and we also dumped the Land Rover three years ago for a fuel efficient small compact station wagon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our kids are 13 and 15. They're as aware of climate issues as we adults are. We often discuss global warming and other climate issues which will affect them and their children even more than the current generation is being affected.

The thing which I think has been most useful in their learning process is discussing (arguing) with relatives and friends who are global warming deniers. It has motivated the kids to do research on the bad/non/anti-science of the cretins those people reference in support of their simple *belief* that gw is not real, to use logic to see through their fallacies or specious arguments or flat-out lies, etc.

You personally would also enjoy the many laughs we've had during discussions about YEC, ID, and other anti-science evolution deniers. Big family fun. As the mott of of Faber college from the movie "Animal House" maintains: Knowledge is good.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank,

I struggle with the same people, and if you read some recent correspondence on this site, you will find that I have done battle with YECs, ID ers, and creationists. The irony is that all of these people use the very technology that relies upon evolutionary theory as the foundation of modern biology. Although the climate debate is pretty much settled within the scientific community (like evolution), self imposed ignorance still holds court with far too many people, however, such folks now have the opportunity to get off their denying a$$es and go take a look at the evidence of a warming planet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:26 pm    Post subject: More on global warming Reply with quote

I agree with the thought that any real movement toward reducing global warming will come from the grass roots. Our younger daughter has been writing an enviro-news letter with some of her friends in which they encourage conservation practices within the commuity. For years, our family has been actively working on reducing our collective carbon footprint, minimizing electricity usage by purchasing EnergyStar appliances and moving to off-peak hours, composting, recycling and so on. We've made movements toward passive solar heating, drive a hybrid car and are weighing the pros and cons of augmenting heating with a fireplace insert. On the national scale, what are your thoughts on the Kyoto Pact? I'm surprised that no mention was made here about Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth'? Do you believe he fairly represented the issue or do you concur with the British criticism that some of the hard facts were skewed? How do you both view our national/administrative resistance to actively working on this problem?

Interesting thread, thanks for opening it up.

Rich
_________________
homeschooling since '97: daughter, 18- away at college, son, 16 and daughter 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Rich,

Hope y'all had a swell Christmas. Thanks for your comments contributing to this thread. Here are my thoughts.

I agree that there must be a grassroots effort. Most things ultimately get decided from the bottom up rather than the top down. At root, *we* are "the government" and that's a cool thing. However, that "ultimately" can be too little too late in many cases when an extant top-down policy is contradictory to practices which are beneficial for our lovely, little planet.

Sounds like your family and Basil's and mine are all doing "what we can" at our own level, although we often question whether our "enough" is actually enough. Every individual in our society is free to make his/her own choices about this; so in a sense, all any individual can do is to discuss the problem and do whatever they consider adequate. That leaves us with a discussion of action at a higher-than-grassroots level.

To answer your questions directly, I'll make these responses:

Kyoto:
I wish we'd signed Kyoto. It's not perfect but nothing in politics is. The main criticism of it came from economic thinktanks. Lots of generic criticism from the John Birch-inclined but these are not actual criticisms, just complaints and fears of U. N. black helicopters. My critique of their criticisms would go something like this. Let's take one of my favorites, The Cato Institute. These guys are "pure free-market capitalists" or anarchocapitalists or whatever the phrase du jour is. Unfortunately for them, this ideology is no more realistically workable in the real world than Marxism, not to mention the fact that Adam Smith originated his work about two hundred years ago and the world has changed since then. Oh yeah, and then there's the fact that about fifty years ago, the Nash proved the fallacious nature of his arguments by virtue of his famous Nash Equilibrium. Hell, I know that and I'm certainly no economist. The Cato Institute is not a thinktank, IMO, it's an ideological propaganda mill for an ideology which was proven incorrect by it's own "science" (Personally, I don't consider economics a science; but economists certainly do.)

With economic criticism removed from the picture, all other criticism is essentially of the but-it-hurts-the-US-more-than-XYZ school of whining. My counter-argument is that since we produce more pollution than X, Y, and Z combined, we should be doing more to correct the problem.

On Gore and "An Inconvenient Truth:"

Yeah, I have a cousin who continually sends me "proof" that global warming is a myth, mostly stuff from junkscience.com. He never responds when I point out that Steve Milloy of junkscience is paid by the Cato Institute, the oil and tobacco industries, and Fox news, which is second only to Pravda for "spinning" reality. Me, I call that lying. Hs "science" is a conglomeration of half-truths, twisted facts, and outright lies.

When he heard about the English judge's ruling, my cousin e-mailed me this pithy comment:

quote
Check this link http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/oct/11/climatechange?gusrc=rss&feed=8. Al Gore made up 9 lies and got two movie awards and a Nobel prize for them. If schoolkids are forced to watch this movie, they must be told about these lies. A court judge ruled on it. Global warming is a lie.
/quote

Phrased that way, it sounds like a pretty significant condemnation of global warming, doesn't it? However, if you read the actual content of the story, it says, among other things:

"Justice Burton said he had no complaint about Gore's central thesis that climate change was happening and was being driven by emissions from humans. However, the judge said nine statements in the film were not supported by mainstream scientific consensus."

...and...

"Despite his finding of significant errors, Mr Justice Barton said many of the claims made by the film were supported by the weight of scientific evidence and he identified four main hypotheses, each of which is very well supported by research published in respected, peer-reviewed journals and accords with the latest conclusions of the IPCC."

Well, then, not such a condemnation of gw as my e-mailer made it sound with his added commentary, huh? In point of fact, the judge ruled that the 9 statements made in the movie were "not supported my mainstream scientific consensus" while the four main hypotheses were *well-supported by scientific evidence*. This is not nearly the same as "The judge said gw is a lie."

In point of fact, the judge said specifically that gw is real and anthropogenic. Besides, 9 statements out of everything contained in a two-hour movie is not too shabby, IMO. Our president makes 9 misstatements (or outright lies) every *minute* his mouth is open. Even *I* can make 9 mistakes in a day. Sometimes. <grin>

So to answer your specific question directly, I agree with the English judge: 9 of his arguments were fallacious but his basic premise is absolutely accurate and supported by factual science and he fairly and accurately represents the issue.

As to your last question, I view our national/administrative resistance to actively working on this problem as a crime against humanity. In terms of long-term effects, it's probably a worse policy that our administration's attempts to strip our constitutional rights. We'll definitely get those back in fairly short order; but the long-term damage done by an administration which for a long time actively subverted the science and facts on this issue (Remember Phil Cooney who "edited" government reports to "deemphasize" information about climate change?) will affect our children and their children.

And that's my $.02 on that!

See ya,

Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditto!

I think that the deniers went out of their way to discredit the movie. One of their claims was that Gore asserted that the oceans were going to rise 20-30 ft in the next 100 years. My understanding is that Gore said that if the Greenland and Antarctic ice caps melted, ocean levels would rise by these amounts. iT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS STATEMENT is supported by the scientific consensus on this issue.....yet it was all they could hang their hats on as they struggled to discredit by attack minutae.

The scientific consensus and the actual observable evidence will overwhelm ideologically driven think tanks......hopefully sooner than later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Checking in again Reply with quote

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to run with the pack and pretend that there isn't a serious environmental concern right in front of us? Fortunately, or unfortunately there seems to be a growing consciousness and meaningful activity about gw and I am hopeful that there will eventually be critical mass enough to impact our national position.

Frank, your comprehensive reply took some time to process. It seems that one of the biggest hurdles to pass will be getting the think-tanks to admit that the irrefutible scientific findings show that the global warming that they condeded does exist definitely has a destructive and time sensitive impact. Really their behavior shows how money is more destructive than C02 when those brilliant minds can consider scientific data ie; that carbon dioxide elevations have climbed expnentially, see that those findings correlate directly with peak use of fossil fuel and still spin the truth to satisfy their benefactors. Maybe at some point, a (financial)power bigger than Exxon-Mobil will fund a think-tank that will change the wording of the study from "possibly could" to "definitely does."

Once the oil companies and their patrons are held accountable, maybe rainforest destruction can be addressed. Ah, well, the milennium is still young...

Have a good day, guys.

Rich
_________________
homeschooling since '97: daughter, 18- away at college, son, 16 and daughter 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich said: Frank, your comprehensive reply took some time to process.

Grin! I know that really means that I'm long-winded. I apologize for that. My wife and kids call me on it all the time. I really wanted to post a reply at least three times that long but I controlled myself.

Humans operate to a great extent from selfishness. That's what makes Capitalism work in general and Marxism fail in general. However, people are not strictly that simplistic. Most people, even the most selfish, will extend that selfishness to include their children's welfare. My hope is that when people start to see that their children are being affected, they'll be willing to take action to protect their kids. I just hope that happens in a decent timeframe and not at the very last minute, although I often despair of that.

I'm hoping for a GREAT Third Millennium! I intend to see as much of it as I can, too!

Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an additional tidbit y'all might find interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg

My initial comment to the person who sent me this link was that this is essentially Pascal's Gambit. The video guy has a series of specific-response videos, one of which supposedly answers that accusation. I haven't had time to look at all his videos but I doubt that he can actually negate the consideration of this as a variant of Pascal's Gambit. Nonetheless, he's entertaining. Schooled kids would certainly enjoy having this guy as their teacher compared to most of 'em.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
Here's an additional tidbit y'all might find interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg

My initial comment to the person who sent me this link was that this is essentially Pascal's Gambit. The video guy has a series of specific-response videos, one of which supposedly answers that accusation. I haven't had time to look at all his videos but I doubt that he can actually negate the consideration of this as a variant of Pascal's Gambit. Nonetheless, he's entertaining. Schooled kids would certainly enjoy having this guy as their teacher compared to most of 'em.


I tried to view the presentation but had no sound. I agree, this guy looks entertaining much like Bill Nye. He has potemtial.

R
_________________
homeschooling since '97: daughter, 18- away at college, son, 16 and daughter 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:

I tried to view the presentation but had no sound. I agree, this guy looks entertaining much like Bill Nye. He has potemtial.

R


Well, that's too bad; he's very entertaining, while presenting information in a linear, digestible form. Are you sure your speakers weren't off or some equally simple fix? I think you'd find his video worthwhile.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
Rich wrote:

I tried to view the presentation but had no sound. I agree, this guy looks entertaining much like Bill Nye. He has potemtial.

R


Well, that's too bad; he's very entertaining, while presenting information in a linear, digestible form. Are you sure your speakers weren't off or some equally simple fix? I think you'd find his video worthwhile.


Yep Frank, you got me. We use a wireless keyboard with a volume control- that knob didn't make the sound come on so when I went to the volume control on the puter, it was off. Anyway, played the video and did really like it, very poignant. I sent it around too. Thanks

Rich
_________________
homeschooling since '97: daughter, 18- away at college, son, 16 and daughter 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:


Yep Frank, you got me. We use a wireless keyboard with a volume control- that knob didn't make the sound come on so when I went to the volume control on the puter, it was off. Anyway, played the video and did really like it, very poignant. I sent it around too. Thanks

Rich


Great! I retired (mostly) from Microsoft where I wrote Help systems. I'd hate to confess to the number of times I called our internal Helpdesk because something wasn't working and it turned out to be a loose plug or other simple fix I could (should!) have diagnosed myself. We're all just human. Sometimes we're more "human" than other times. <VBG>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
Rich wrote:


Yep Frank, you got me. We use a wireless keyboard with a volume control- that knob didn't make the sound come on so when I went to the volume control on the puter, it was off. Anyway, played the video and did really like it, very poignant. I sent it around too. Thanks

Rich


Great! I retired (mostly) from Microsoft where I wrote Help systems. I'd hate to confess to the number of times I called our internal Helpdesk because something wasn't working and it turned out to be a loose plug or other simple fix I could (should!) have diagnosed myself. We're all just human. Sometimes we're more "human" than other times. <VBG>


I hear ya. In my world, this is akin to "physician, heal thyself"
Thanks again,

Rich

BTW, did you get any takers for your winter solstice party? Would have made the effort if I lived nearby but I'm on the east coast.
_________________
homeschooling since '97: daughter, 18- away at college, son, 16 and daughter 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:

BTW, did you get any takers for your winter solstice party? Would have made the effort if I lived nearby but I'm on the east coast.


Hey!

We're having a *Mardi Gras* party this weekend. A bunch of unschooling families and sailing/unschooling families from around the Northwest are attending but nobody from this group e-mailed me about attending.

I start cooking tomorrow (jambalaya, crab mousse, boiled shrimp, and bread pudding with whiskey sauce) and we're having a coupla kingcakes shipped up from New Orleans. The first attendees show up tomorrow, too. The big party is on Saturday followed by a Superbowl party at our house on Sunday.

I'm excited. I love Mardi Gras but it ain't the same, living in the Seattle area, ya know? This party will be a swell time with a bunch of wonderful folks.

Color me happy,

Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Home School Dads Forum Index -> Science All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Space

Space
Space
space