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The bible Handbook
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Frank.

My best to you and your family as well. I look foreward to chatting with you on other matters like my February trip to NOLA. I'm composing the write-up in my mind while simultaneously dealing with the long distance relocation of my mother, sale of the family homestead, purchase of her new place and so on. Sigh... So, you may have to wait awhile longer to hear the tale, but it is coming.

Rich
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

There is no need to rehash these arguments, although much of your above post strays from the facts and record of our discussion. You have made numerous comments which I could challenge and refute, however I will not go there today.

As an atheist, I may take the "in your face"Christopher Hitchens approach, but without the soaring rhetoric that drips with so much erudition. It is my choice to deal with the self righteous with the same disdain that they have and continue to demonstrate towards nonbelievers. I agree with Hitchens that it is time to put these people on the run, after all, it was one of my Danish relatives who was one of the last to be hung for nonbelief at the end of the "Burning Times" in Europe. It was the year 1750.

I would think that if the devout can keep their god out of science discussions, then I will not be prepared to challenge points with such vehemence and veracity. That said, I dont want my children exposed to this stuff any more than you Rich would want your child exposed to child pornographers.

As to the
Bible Handbook, it is a fairly thorough analysis of the contradiction, absurdity, violence, brutality and illogical biblical content that makes any sane person wonder how in the 21st century that such content has anything to do with benevolence or any thing bordering on that which is good. I will leave you with this tidbit.

Name one moral act which the religious can do which atheists can not or do not do.

Now lets turn the tables, name one immoral act that the religious partake in that atheists and agnostics do not.


I will only say that there is no answer to the first query, and that there are many to the second.
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

On the topic of your so called unanswered examples. I never felt that the supernatural claims of questionable people which border on hallucination need some type scientific response. People live and die daily due to many reasons including chance. You can claim divine intervention all you want, but I hardly feel the need to explain such musings from the devout. Such unsubstantiated claims to which can be applied no serious intellectual rational scrutiny are beyond the reach of science, but hardly evidence of a supernatural being. As to proof for a god, I never sought it, nor did I say that there is proof against such existence. Neither assertion, as you know, can be defended rationally. As with Santa though, the absence of evidence tips the scales my way. Again, you might want to take a second viewing of "Life of Brian" for some additional, and maybe, much needed insight into religious faith.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basilosaurus,

You say that you would expose your children to child pornographers before religious people? Your extremist mentality is getting the best of you, really. I think you have an illness.


Rich
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

Read my post, and check your reading comprehension. I do not want people to attempt the indoctrination of my children, nor do I want them exposed to pedophiles. In light of the Catholic churchs' policy of "No childs' behind left", I would think that you would make the connection that at least with some of the devout, they happen to be the same people.

As to the mental illness, I am not the one who accepts a man (as his savior for eternity), against whose very historicity, a very serious argument can be made.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

basilosaurus wrote:
Rich,

Read my post, and check your reading comprehension. I do not want people to attempt the indoctrination of my children, nor do I want them exposed to pedophiles. In light of the Catholic churchs' policy of "No childs' behind left", I would think that you would make the connection that at least with some of the devout, they happen to be the same people.

As to the mental illness, I am not the one who accepts a man (as his savior for eternity), against whose very historicity, a very serious argument can be made.


Basilosaurus,

I concede, my phrasing was off. As a generalization, I maintain that having equal or even similar disdain for religious people and pedophiles might be considered extreme even by athiests. I've already said that I consider the Bible to be a collection of stories and journals handed down through generations and that they have been overtranslated and manipulated. What you may be surprised to hear is that I agree with much of your commentary regarding the institutional church. Being built and run by people, the church will demonstrate all the ills that are found in every society; addictions, corruptions, pettiness, and so on. I have said before that my faith in "God" has very little to do with church in fact, if I based my faith on my childhood exposure to church, I'm sure I would be in your camp. Nonetheless, the reason I attend is more for fellowship. While true Godseekers are found in all churches, there are plenty who aren't there yet. The membership is not perfect but I think in general, people who are churchgoers strive to live well and help others to do the same. It may be a denominational difference but, I like to say that church is not a showcase for the riteous, but rather a hospital for the sick. While on the subject of fellowship among Godseekers, I find the members of the naturalist organization who leads my son's school to be very spiritual. They are a group who base their beliefs and practices on Native American traditions.


Rich
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

I will contest nothing from your most recent post. I am also in agreement that most godseekers are good people, as are most who do not seek the spiritual. If my commentary compels others to infer that I am to much of a militant atheist, ala Christopher Hitchens, it is likely because I have spent much of my life responding to similar commentary from the devout.
As Thich Nat Hahn said, " the road to peace requires compassion and understanding of your adversary, not guns and bombs" I will attempt to use such wise words as a guide more often.

Basilosaurus
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

basilosaurus wrote:
Rich,

I will contest nothing from your most recent post. I am also in agreement that most godseekers are good people, as are most who do not seek the spiritual. If my commentary compels others to infer that I am to much of a militant atheist, ala Christopher Hitchens, it is likely because I have spent much of my life responding to similar commentary from the devout.
As Thich Nat Hahn said, " the road to peace requires compassion and understanding of your adversary, not guns and bombs" I will attempt to use such wise words as a guide more often.

Basilosaurus



Basilosaurus,

Once again, we agree. I appreciate the reminder for myself. Our world would indeed be a better place if we chose to follow the example of peaceful people instead.

Rich

BTW: Happy Father's Day
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Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
basilosaurus wrote:
Rich,

I will contest nothing from your most recent post. I am also in agreement that most godseekers are good people, as are most who do not seek the spiritual. If my commentary compels others to infer that I am to much of a militant atheist, ala Christopher Hitchens, it is likely because I have spent much of my life responding to similar commentary from the devout.
As Thich Nat Hahn said, " the road to peace requires compassion and understanding of your adversary, not guns and bombs" I will attempt to use such wise words as a guide more often.

Basilosaurus



Basilosaurus,

Once again, we agree. I appreciate the reminder for myself. Our world would indeed be a better place if we chose to follow the example of peaceful people instead.

Rich

BTW: Happy Father's Day



Awwwww, man, I can feel the love. (grin)

Happy father's day to all y'all!

Pax tecum vobiscumque,

Frank
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
Rich wrote:
basilosaurus wrote:
Rich,

I will contest nothing from your most recent post. I am also in agreement that most godseekers are good people, as are most who do not seek the spiritual. If my commentary compels others to infer that I am to much of a militant atheist, ala Christopher Hitchens, it is likely because I have spent much of my life responding to similar commentary from the devout.
As Thich Nat Hahn said, " the road to peace requires compassion and understanding of your adversary, not guns and bombs" I will attempt to use such wise words as a guide more often.

Basilosaurus



Basilosaurus,

Once again, we agree. I appreciate the reminder for myself. Our world would indeed be a better place if we chose to follow the example of peaceful people instead.

Rich

BTW: Happy Father's Day



Awwwww, man, I can feel the love. (grin)

Happy father's day to all y'all!

Pax tecum vobiscumque,

Frank



Ahh Frank,

Always the smooth talker. How was your sail?

Rich
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Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
...snip...Ahh Frank,

Always the smooth talker. How was your sail?

Rich


It's happening at the beginning of July. My pal Bob has agreed in principle to the deal. We'll fly to Ft. Lauderdale on July 1 for him to pay for and take possession of the boat. We hope to prep her and hit the water by July 3 at the latest. It's a nominal one week to sail from Ft. Lauderdale to New Orleans, give or take light winds or hurricanes. Shhhh! Don't even say that word!

Bob's son, who's almost 40, will be our third crewmember. That'll be a wonderful bonding experience for them.

I've never done a deep-water passage on a big catamaran, just monohulls; I"m looking forward to the experience. Our first day will be scooting along the keys but once we "turn the corner" at Key West it'll be straight across the middle of the Gulf of Mexico to the fairway leading toward Gulfport, MS.

Conditions are predicted to be 10~15 kt. winds and 2~4 ft. seas. That'd be perfect. Here's hoping.

Dulce et decorum est pro ludo navigati! (It is sweet and appropriate to sail for fun! - apologies to Horace)

Frank
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank wrote:
Rich wrote:
...snip...Ahh Frank,

Always the smooth talker. How was your sail?

Rich


It's happening at the beginning of July. My pal Bob has agreed in principle to the deal. We'll fly to Ft. Lauderdale on July 1 for him to pay for and take possession of the boat. We hope to prep her and hit the water by July 3 at the latest. It's a nominal one week to sail from Ft. Lauderdale to New Orleans, give or take light winds or hurricanes. Shhhh! Don't even say that word!

Bob's son, who's almost 40, will be our third crewmember. That'll be a wonderful bonding experience for them.

I've never done a deep-water passage on a big catamaran, just monohulls; I"m looking forward to the experience. Our first day will be scooting along the keys but once we "turn the corner" at Key West it'll be straight across the middle of the Gulf of Mexico to the fairway leading toward Gulfport, MS.

Conditions are predicted to be 10~15 kt. winds and 2~4 ft. seas. That'd be perfect. Here's hoping.

Dulce et decorum est pro ludo navigati! (It is sweet and appropriate to sail for fun! - apologies to Horace)

Frank


Sounds like a great experience. Good luck and smooth sailing.

Rich
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