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Harvard to study the orgins of life
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich,

This is a science forum, as you and Barti well know. Furthermore your observations and proclamations to do with the atheists and agnostic among us, lack any merit at all.
Finally, you ask how to explain a vast number of questions that you have proposed, most of which are well explained within evolutionary biology.

As to your questions about species living today, many species have lived for hundreds of millions of years, and they carry much of the same dna that humans do, yet we only showed up on the scene (modern humans) some 120,000-190,000 yrs ago. The infamous bacterial flagellum is a case in pointMany species like the other primates, and we are one of them share common ancestry with us....they neednt become extinct at some predetermined time.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest wrote:
rich,

This is a science forum, as you and Barti well know. Furthermore your observations and proclamations to do with the atheists and agnostic among us, lack any merit at all.
Finally, you ask how to explain a vast number of questions that you have proposed, most of which are well explained within evolutionary biology.

As to your questions about species living today, many species have lived for hundreds of millions of years, and they carry much of the same dna that humans do, yet we only showed up on the scene (modern humans) some 120,000-190,000 yrs ago. The infamous bacterial flagellum is a case in pointMany species like the other primates, and we are one of them share common ancestry with us....they neednt become extinct at some predetermined time.


Dear guest,

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you and another scientist who has posted here insist on reminding us that this is a forum dedicated to science. I think we know that. How do you define science? Does discussing faith in the context of science deviate from scientific thinking in general or just by your definitiion? What exactly is your point? Are you clarifying something for me? Is it that in the infallible, fully scientific, volumes of evolutionary biology, you've discovered that we share the same protein building block compounds as all living tissue? No surprise there. Does it have something to do with flagella? I suppose I could concede my point about how some species remain unchanged throughout history while others don't, but I used the example to illustrate another which that the theory of evolution is inconsistent. If it's scientific, shouldn't it be reproducible? If you would clarify that for me, I would appreciate it. Then, if you will, explain how my statements having to do with faith and creation as directed to the athiests among this readership, lack merit. I think the agnostics may agree with the creator idea. Please do not confuse my position as coming from a creationist viewpoint as I do not subscribe to creationism. Finally, using scientific theory, please conclusively disprove the existance of God.

Rich
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
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Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
guest wrote:
rich,

This is a science forum, as you and Barti well know. Furthermore your observations and proclamations to do with the atheists and agnostic among us, lack any merit at all.
Finally, you ask how to explain a vast number of questions that you have proposed, most of which are well explained within evolutionary biology.

As to your questions about species living today, many species have lived for hundreds of millions of years, and they carry much of the same dna that humans do, yet we only showed up on the scene (modern humans) some 120,000-190,000 yrs ago. The infamous bacterial flagellum is a case in pointMany species like the other primates, and we are one of them share common ancestry with us....they neednt become extinct at some predetermined time.


Dear guest,

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you and another scientist who has posted here insist on reminding us that this is a forum dedicated to science. I think we know that. How do you define science? Does discussing faith in the context of science deviate from scientific thinking in general or just by your definitiion? What exactly is your point? Are you clarifying something for me? Is it that in the infallible, fully scientific, volumes of evolutionary biology, you've discovered that we share the same protein building block compounds as all living tissue? No surprise there. Does it have something to do with flagella? I suppose I could concede my point about how some species remain unchanged throughout history while others don't, but I used the example to illustrate another which that the theory of evolution is inconsistent. If it's scientific, shouldn't it be reproducible? If you would clarify that for me, I would appreciate it. Then, if you will, explain how my statements having to do with faith and creation as directed to the athiests among this readership, lack merit. I think the agnostics may agree with the creator idea. Please do not confuse my position as coming from a creationist viewpoint as I do not subscribe to creationism. Finally, using scientific theory, please conclusively disprove the existance of God.

Rich


Hi everyone,

I found myself thinking about this again and decided to alter my response. I replied when I was annoyed which caused me to write a more incisive reply than I otherwise would have. Had I taken enough time to make the thoughtful reply that I should have, it would've read more like this:

I have spent a lot of time and effort explaining my viewpoint about faith and how it relates to science in this thread. To those who wish to challenge me, I ask that you first take the time to read all of my commentary before taking issue with any part of it. Guest, what you seem to be looking for from me and what I zeroed in on but not kindly, is proof. I believe we're at a stalemate. I have written rather lengthy explanations but cannot offer scientific proof to support my positions and you cannot produce credible scientific evidence to disprove them.

To summarize, it is my firm opinion that conclusive proof both in God and in the theory of evolution is elusive. The only thing available to make either idea truly plausible is belief. There is the rub. As I stated in several of my earlier posts here, I can accept for now, that some things in science remain unknown and unexplainable. Furthermore, it is my impression that while I choose to believe in God therefore, Intelligent Design, you choose to believe in the theory of evolution. I do not expect nor do I attempt to win you over but, I can respect your position on these things . What I ask is that you do the same for me.

Peace,

Rich
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homeschooling since '97: daughter, 18- away at college, son, 16 and daughter 13


Last edited by Rich on Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

Your commentary to date has demonstrated that you are unwilling to even bother with a trip to a natural history museum. As a scientist, you should know that science has demonstrated more than adequate proof for a courtroom to dislodge silly notions about ID, as happened in the Dover ,PA case.I neednt comment further on the issue.

As to your comments about atheists and agnostics, you are clearly off track suggesting that they somehow believe or want to believe in your god.

As to the exsitance of a god, you feign ignorance by your suggestion. Science cannot speak for gods, ogres, elves, Santas or goblins such superstitions are matters of faith and belief. Science is, contrary to your view, not grounded in belief.
I will say however that science has done much to discount claims made within religious texts including your bible.

and I would go to say that as in thecase for Santa, the absence of evidence suggests evidence of absence. As for your examples, they hardly meet any standard of evidence whatsoever, as you well know.

Evolution isquite consistent, and the theory has made predictions that have proven true, such as the findings of fossils from australopithecus, homo erectus etc. Not even your bible has such a successful track record. If you go back and read any of your biology texts from 101 on, you will find examples of evolutionary theory and reproduction in the lab and in the field.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

Science isnt about proof. It must be falsifiable. As to evolution, there is overwhelming scientific evidence in support of it, and not a shred in support of creation, ID, or whatever they will call it next.

The intersection of science and religion hass occurred because creationists have brought the challenge to science. I could turn the tables and put religion and faith under scientific scrutiny, however, I am not interested in trying to embarrass those of faith.

You talk of proof for a god or for evolution. That will not be forthcoming in either case, although one can view the fossil lineage of humans and other species ie. dinosaurs-birds at natural history museums around the world. I would suggest a look.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good evening guest,

Thanks for your reply. You have made your point(s). As I said in my second reply last evening, you and I are at a stalemate. I will not restate myself or continue to defend my positions because I made my points clear already. You will disagree and I can live with that. Cheers,

Rich
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

A wise move on your behalf......considering that your positions on evolutionary theory have long been shown to diverge from facts in evidence.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Rich,

A wise move on your behalf......considering that your positions on evolutionary theory have long been shown to diverge from facts in evidence.


Your facts and arrogant assumptions. Maybe I am wise because I believe I see a larger scope. I do not set the limits before I attempt to understand. I have even been to the museum and understand fossils. As I said, I am not a creationist not a Biblical Literalist. If you read any of my prior entries, especially to "Basilosaurus," you may recall a mention of a colleague who is an excelled scientist and speaks quite eloquently about his faith and that there is no conflict with his scientific reasoning. This man is humble enough to consider two things; that there is something larger than he and that we might not know all of the answers in fact, creation might not be finished yet either. It is possible to be scientific and spiritual, they are not mutually exclusive. It would be easy to conclude that everything wraps up neatly into the evolutionary theory.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

The facts that support evolutionary theory are the same ones that I utilize within my arguments. Basilosaurus (whale with feet) appears to have laid out a number of these in previous posts. If you care to cite my arrogant assumptions, we can certainly discuss. You mention limits and larger scopes, yet you have pre-conceived religious views about matters of science, which can only serve to obstruct free thought.

You can believe in a god all you want, and I would not challenge those views if scientific sites, like this one, were not invaded with creationist and ID nonsense. However, evolutionary biology ,which stands as a principle of science and is supported by ALL the scientific evidence, is still attacked after 140 yrs of positive research and the spawning of various related scientific disciplines. Therefore it is only fair that I can go after your divine one in response.

Nobel Laureate Bertrand Russell once said "Christianity is the result of an ignorant superstition, in favor of which, cannot be made, a single rational argument."

I, myself would have used softer wording to make such a point, but, in this day and age when the devout are willing to attack scientific facts, I would think the commentary of Mr. Russell are befitting of these times.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

I think we can move on from these topics to discuss homeschool matters. I will, as one of the resident secularists, continue to monitor and challenge doctrine and dogma wherever it may be, for free thought must remain unfettered by the constraints of religious doctrine.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
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Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest wrote:
Rich,

I think we can move on from these topics to discuss homeschool matters. I will, as one of the resident secularists, continue to monitor and challenge doctrine and dogma wherever it may be, for free thought must remain unfettered by the constraints of religious doctrine.


Hi once again, guest.

I seem to recall that the first fettering of free thought here occurred when a resident secularist cast condescending remarks against a believer who made the original post to which all this response has been made. This continued for awhile, stopped, then recently you challenged a post that I made from back then. The challenge had to do aspects of my belief. Several times during our exchange, I made the request that you accept our differrence of opinion on this matter and each time, your reply was made in a condescending tone suggesting that those with faith myself included, are ignorant, foolish, superstitious and so on. This is plainly offensive. Why would you choose to align yourself with religious homeschoolers? You must know that aspects of academia discussed here frequently intesect with religion and many here stand further to the right than I do. How can you gain anything that you would view as valuable? If by your statement "will continue to monitor and challenge", your only offer is to essentially censor "religious" postings here, don't. This will cause you to be guilty of doing exactly what you accuse religious folk of, obstructing free thought. Attempting to enlighten us here will only be destructive. Have you not found a progressive website or blog for homeschoolers who insist on only what you view as pure academia? Why don't you start one?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

Again, free thought cannot be constrained by religious doctrine, and that was clearly the intent of the party who said that Harvard could not run a study on the origins of life without discussing creation. I objected because as you very well know, creation and ID have NO foundation in science, nor is there a shred of scientific evidence in support of either one.

In our discussions to date, you have made the request to accept our differences, however with a caveat such as "neither of us has offered credible scientific evidence" This is a fallacious argument on your part, and will not go without challenge.

Those who challenge science with religion within the scientific arena are foolish and of course ignorant of the facts in evidence. As to superstition......you may call it faith I dont really mind.

As to your concerns about censoring religion, I dont enter into religious threads, however, the devout seem to find their way into those that are scientific, and yes, pseudo scientific ideas will be challenged. What would be destructive is if I entered into religious threads and started challenging the existence of your god. That would be offensive, as is the attempted insertion of ID and creationist views into scientific threads. They are separate animals. I would suggest you find a site that caters to the devout.

As to your final dig "what you view as pure academia" My views on science are consistent with all of the peer reviewed publications on the topics we have discussed, they comply with the teachings found within every major accredited university in this country, they mirror the opinions found within the National Academy of Sciences, they support the overwhelming evidence laid out within numerous lines of inquiry from numerous scientific disciplines and they are in agreement with most mainstream Christian denominations in this country, who, by the way, have long accepted evolutionary theory as FACT.

It is only within fringe religious communities where on can find debates on the topic......bad ones at that....steeped in ignorance.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest wrote:
Rich,

Again, free thought cannot be constrained by religious doctrine, and that was clearly the intent of the party who said that Harvard could not run a study on the origins of life without discussing creation. I objected because as you very well know, creation and ID have NO foundation in science, nor is there a shred of scientific evidence in support of either one.

In our discussions to date, you have made the request to accept our differences, however with a caveat such as "neither of us has offered credible scientific evidence" This is a fallacious argument on your part, and will not go without challenge.

Those who challenge science with religion within the scientific arena are foolish and of course ignorant of the facts in evidence. As to superstition......you may call it faith I dont really mind.

As to your concerns about censoring religion, I dont enter into religious threads, however, the devout seem to find their way into those that are scientific, and yes, pseudo scientific ideas will be challenged. What would be destructive is if I entered into religious threads and started challenging the existence of your god. That would be offensive, as is the attempted insertion of ID and creationist views into scientific threads. They are separate animals. I would suggest you find a site that caters to the devout.

As to your final dig "what you view as pure academia" My views on science are consistent with all of the peer reviewed publications on the topics we have discussed, they comply with the teachings found within every major accredited university in this country, they mirror the opinions found within the National Academy of Sciences, they support the overwhelming evidence laid out within numerous lines of inquiry from numerous scientific disciplines and they are in agreement with most mainstream Christian denominations in this country, who, by the way, have long accepted evolutionary theory as FACT.

It is only within fringe religious communities where on can find debates on the topic......bad ones at that....steeped in ignorance.


Dear guest,

Thank you for acknowleding that some Christians, including me, can accept the theory of evolution as fact- but incomplete. I never said that all parts of it were disbelievable however, I along with countless others, acknowledge that there is a lifeforce beyond humanity which made everything possible. As you've stated, science has proven "God's" work and for that, I'm grateful. Maybe I should've said that first. Can we be friends now?

Rich
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

We can certainly be friends, however you might want to see a doctor about falling on your head earlier, which clearly preceded your comment about science having proven your god's work. Any way, I agree we have taken this far enough.
Remember that even Einstein's gravitational theory is quite incomplete, as is quantum mechanics. Like evolutionary theory, they provide life long education.....as long as they are not falsified. Send the Big Guy down and pray the he proves the theory wrong......we can go to church together then.
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Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest wrote:
Rich,

We can certainly be friends, however you might want to see a doctor about falling on your head earlier, which clearly preceded your comment about science having proven your god's work. Any way, I agree we have taken this far enough.
Remember that even Einstein's gravitational theory is quite incomplete, as is quantum mechanics. Like evolutionary theory, they provide life long education.....as long as they are not falsified. Send the Big Guy down and pray the he proves the theory wrong......we can go to church together then.


Once again, the cheap shot. If you want to be friends, you will have to start being nice. Do all evolutionists have the need for rancor or just you and basilosaurus? I suppose God may in His time, prove things for you in a way that you will understandand. Maybe you will have to die first and then you will have no doubt. Actually, many bright people have doubts so, you are in good company. There is proof enough for some of us but then we would need to define miracle. Do you want to go there? Eventually, we will all know for sure, won't we. Regarding theories and their providing lifelong education, I'm with you there too. On the matter of sending the Big Guy down, that won't be necessary because he's right there with you now. Did you feel a little jolt just then? On the matter of us going to church together, anytime.
Rich
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