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neutrality on religion
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: neutrality on religion Reply with quote

For some, this site is an opportunity to push their faith. I think, as do others from my reading of posts, that this site leans towards christianity. All homeschoolers should be welcome here from Atheists to the most devoutly religious. IIf someone wants to start a comparative religion thread, that might be helpful in keeping matters of faith out of unrelated disciplines.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So as not to offend the devout, I erred above by not capitalizing "Christianity"
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BigDaddy
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Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Orlando

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest,
First as the creator of this website, let me say welcome to you. I hope you do continue to be active in these forums and eventually register as a member.

We do invite ALL homeschooling dads and even some moms to participate on this forum. We do not discriminate against homeschoolers that do not have a Christian viewpoint. Based on your previous posts, I can even say that I have met a few Christians who would agree with your views on evolution while at the same time believe that God does exist.

But the majority of homeschoolers (in my opinion, I have not done research on this) are Christian and so therefore you will find a lot of discussion from that viewpoint. I hope that will not discourage you from continuing to post here. I think we ALL can benefit from a good open debate about any topic. As long as it stays a clean debate without any name calling, it will be allowed.

Again, welcome to the forum. Please do register and tell us more about yourself and your background.
Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Daddy,

With all due respect, any education based on a religious "view" or faith, which clearly cannot be scrutinized with any intellectual scrutiny whatsoever, must lie outside the realm of reason , rational thought, and critical inquiry. Such an education can not overcome the pre-conceived beliefs held by those doing the teaching. Personally, I view such a position as untenable.
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homeschooldaddy



Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Big Daddy,

With all due respect, any education based on a religious "view" or faith, which clearly cannot be scrutinized with any intellectual scrutiny whatsoever, must lie outside the realm of reason , rational thought, and critical inquiry.

Such an education can not overcome the pre-conceived beliefs held by those doing the teaching. Personally, I view such a position as untenable.


Would such a strict structured rule of education not also include other assumptions impossible to prove through observable scientific experimenation? Such as the notion that life evolved from inorganic matter even though the laws of science demand that only life can beget life?

Since we don't know it all, part of education must include some philosophy and assumptions that are unproven at this time. And where do we get those if not from a set of pre-conceived beliefs?

Demanding that no element of faith be included in one's educational curriculum is not only impossible (even evolution must be accepted with some amount of faith) it is just plain Marxist dogma. And, personally, I view that position as untenable.

Part of being in a forum with a free exchange of ideas means that some will have views we don't agree with. We should always be willing to take it with a grain of salt and move on. Choose the option of not reading a thread if it bothers us. And Christians should be allowed that freedom of exchange just as anyone else.

I'm just a little uncomfortable with this notion that freedom of religion means freedom from religion. In a free society, we're allowed to freely express our religious views. Not demand silence from those whose views we don't agree.
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RB



Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: neutrality on religion Reply with quote

guest wrote:
For some, this site is an opportunity to push their faith. I think, as do others from my reading of posts, that this site leans towards christianity. All homeschoolers should be welcome here from Atheists to the most devoutly religious. IIf someone wants to start a comparative religion thread, that might be helpful in keeping matters of faith out of unrelated disciplines.


I have yet to read any posts on this site that state that non-Christians are not welcome.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Beleve it or Not, let's be respectful Reply with quote

The thing that amuses me most about this matter is that atheists posting on this website seem more troubled that there are believers than the beleivers are troubled that there are non-believers. An athiest who while posting on this website, challenges a Believer on the subject of his faith can expect a debate. Therefore, if he isn't up to it, he should refrain from the challenge. In the same vein, an athiest who willfully casts disparaging remarks about God in the presence of believers runs the risk of offending them which leads back to the first problem. Furthermore, I've yet to read here of a believer initiating a discussion with an athiest on the subject of his absence of faith. Ironically, if religion has come up for debate at all, it is because an athiest has brought it up. Otherwise, it may be mentioned in the context of another matter. The only thread solely devoted to faith has the word prayer in the title so is clearly marked.

It has been my observation that mature and enlightened people typically are polite and respectful and most communication here reflects that. This leads me to conclude that most readers take responsibility for their own actions/ reactions, post what is generally acceptable, comment on matters which interest them and ignore what doesn't interest them. If we all follow these norms, we can continue to support each other, share ideas and learn.

Rich
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homeschool Daddy,

There is no law of science that demands that only life can beget life. As to pre conceived assumptions, you make them without observable evidence. As to your calling me a communist, it really does little more than betray your ignorance in matters of philosophy, science, and religion. As to your silly notions about evolutionary theory requiring faith, I suggest you take a look at the overwhelming evidence across a multitude of scientific discplines that support the facts of evolutionary biology. It will take years for you to absorb the peer reviewed publications alone. As to creation, you cannot name a single solitary piece of scientific evidence that supports such flimsy fly by night hypothesis.

Finally, freedom of religion means freedom of choice or freedom from a religion. Having freedom of religion does nothing to put restraints on the the freedom from religion.

Rich,

Anyone can look at all of my posts in the site and realize they are responses to those who feel it appropriate, like yourself, to proselytize in educational forums. Every post that I have made within this site regarding faith and religion, is a response to such proselytizing, although not always within the same thread. As to your silly notion that somehow Atheists were not up to your challenge, I think that it is quite clear that nothing could be further from the truth. In fact my views on matters of faith and relgion would never have been brought into this site, had not others been pushing biblical nonsense throughout it, challenging long accepted scientific theory while enjoying the fruits and technological / medical innovations, that rely upon such science for their very existence. So, if you seek a truce in this matter, I suggest all religious commentary and mentions of gods, elves, unicorns and santas be announce in a topic title so that a choice can be made to avoid the thread.

I have wirritten on many homeschool sites where I have never had to address issues, nor are my views on such issues known within those sites.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

basilosaurus wrote:
Homeschool Daddy,

There is no law of science that demands that only life can beget life. As to pre conceived assumptions, you make them without observable evidence. As to your calling me a communist, it really does little more than betray your ignorance in matters of philosophy, science, and religion. As to your silly notions about evolutionary theory requiring faith, I suggest you take a look at the overwhelming evidence across a multitude of scientific discplines that support the facts of evolutionary biology. It will take years for you to absorb the peer reviewed publications alone. As to creation, you cannot name a single solitary piece of scientific evidence that supports such flimsy fly by night hypothesis.

Finally, freedom of religion means freedom of choice or freedom from a religion. Having freedom of religion does nothing to put restraints on the the freedom from religion.

Rich,

Anyone can look at all of my posts in the site and realize they are responses to those who feel it appropriate, like yourself, to proselytize in educational forums. Every post that I have made within this site regarding faith and religion, is a response to such proselytizing, although not always within the same thread. As to your silly notion that somehow Atheists were not up to your challenge, I think that it is quite clear that nothing could be further from the truth. In fact my views on matters of faith and relgion would never have been brought into this site, had not others been pushing biblical nonsense throughout it, challenging long accepted scientific theory while enjoying the fruits and technological / medical innovations, that rely upon such science for their very existence. So, if you seek a truce in this matter, I suggest all religious commentary and mentions of gods, elves, unicorns and santas be announce in a topic title so that a choice can be made to avoid the thread.

I have wirritten on many homeschool sites where I have never had to address issues, nor are my views on such issues known within those sites.


Basilosaurus,

What can be said about someone who trauls the posts and digs something up from two years ago in the hope of regenerating the same old argument? I have moved beyond but you seem to be fixated.

Rich
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

You made the claim, which until now went unanswered, that we weren't up to the task of debating you. Furthermore this board moves at a snail's pace, if you recall. Heck, two years is a rapid response at Homeschool Dads. I will look for your reply...............when the southern half of Florida is inundated from rising sea levels. Very Happy Very Happy
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="basilosaurus"]Rich,

You made the claim, which until now went unanswered, that we weren't up to the task of debating you. Furthermore this board moves at a snail's pace, if you recall. Heck, two years is a rapid response at Homeschool Dads. I will look for your reply...............when the southern half of Florida is inundated from rising sea levels. Very Happy Very Happy[/quote


Basiolsaurus,
As stated, I've made my position clear on the subject of faith with you repeatedly, and said numerous times in the past, believe that we're at a stalemate. Again, as far as I'm concerned, the subject is closed with you. Regarding the absence of activity on this site, I believe that the reason might largely be you. Like a bully, you lurk about and attack any post that mentions God. You seem to forget or choose to ingore that this site was created by a homeschooling dad and has been frequented mostly by faithful homeschooling dads. Anyone is welcome and encouraged to contribute and many have. The unspoken rule has always been to be polite and respectful. You are not. You refer to "the other" sites that you frequent and always compare this one negatively so I'm really puzzled by your constant reappearance. I've asked you before but you never answered the question; why?


When you leave the playground, the kids will return. Please move on.

Rich
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basilosaurus



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

Any fool can look at the history of this site and realize that it moved much more slowly prior to my arrival. Have you not yet finished your prerequisites for such scholarly attainment? As to being a bully scouring for the word god, that is utter nonsense. I defended science and non belief in the face of those who dragged matters of faith into this site, like yourself. As to faith being a closed subject, yes, it certainly is. It allows no serious discourse which would include intellectual or skeptical inquiry. Your doctrine withers with each passing century, and humanity will be better off when your god gets the same consideration as Wotan, Zeus, Jupiter, Venus, or Aphrodite. As to being respectful, I am hardly going to allow people to challenge science or non belief with nonsense, as you and others have done on this board. If you want respect, you had better act as though you are deserving. Arguing for Santa, or God, or little elves is fine, but if you want respectful dialogue on the topic, you had better come armed with supporting evidence for your assertions. To date, you have provided nothing but flimsy unsupported hypothesis.

As to your final querie, there are people like Frank who frequent these boards. Free thinkers who are open to inquiry, unlike your religious doctrine.
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Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! Did I hear my name mentioned? Remember, if you look in a mirror and say it three times… well, you don't wanna do that! Shudder! Horrorshow time!

I see three issues here.

1. Traffic on this group: This group has never had much traffic. I was absent in late 2005 and early 2006 (on our hurricane sailing adventure) so I missed the original postings which happened then. I've made late comments to several threads which were old by the time I noticed them. I dunno Basil's story but that's why *I* have frequently joined or restarted a conversation long after its origin.

2. Conflict between belief and fact: I agree that this group was started, and mostly populated, by Christians. But let's be specific. There are lots of flavors of Christianity. The loudest ones, like Bart, are of the YEC-inerrant-Bible school. They have no problem posting positions of belief as if they were fact. There is, and always will be, a divide between fact and non-fact, no matter how hard one *believes* in the non-fact. For example, Bart's comments about Harvard's exploration into the origins of life and his associated *push* poll equating Creationism/ID with Evolution as a valid scientific theory.

I hate to get into these kinds of discussions cuz they really just waste time I could be spending on something I enjoy but for the record: Evolution is a scientific theory. That phrase has a specific and rigorous meaning. Creationism/ID is not, and never will be, a scientific theory. It is mythology. Period. There's not a shred of evidence or fact supporting Creationism/ID (especially YEC which is totally ridiculous) unless your "Creationism" is of the flavor which believes in a God Who is the primum mobile, the cause of the big bang; and after He did that, He let the universe run on its own under the rules He set up before He pressed the start button. Belief is not the same as reality.

Same goes for arguments about the usefulness, honesty, and validity of HSLDA as an organization supporting homeschooling. HSLDA "supports homeschooling" ONLY if you are an anarchocapitalist, right-wing, fundamentalist Christian, school-at-homer, who would enjoy living in a theocracy.

Or the essential (fundamentalist) Christianity of the founding fathers. The *facts* are that they were mostly Deists or clockmaker-God types (the God I described per the primum mobile concept) and they definitely wanted to create a nation whose government was NOT influenced by the likes of the Puritans (or "Separatists" if you're a stickler) who had been so disruptive here on this continent and who had all but destroyed England under their brief, tyrannical reign there (Cromwell and the roundheads).

Believe whatever you want but don't parade un/non/anti-factual belief as fact without expecting to be contradicted. Usually not by me cuz I value my time and wanna spend it on other things.

3. Personal style: Some people try to maintain a pleasant façade. Some don't. Basil is more confrontational than I am (and I even called him on that once) but then, so is Bart with his incessant fundamentalist rantings. Guess which one I find more unpleasant? Rich said, "The unspoken rule has always been to be polite and respectful." If you're talking about fundamentalism, that's true. The fundies consistently post ridiculous things (9th circuit court declares parenthood unconstitutional – Really? - or the HSLDA needs you to help them protect their lobbying effort – which has *what* to do with homeschooling?) and this kind of rhetoric goes unchallenged. However, when Basil says something prickly, he's satan incarnate.

Well, maybe he is.

It seems to me that if you're a Christian, your philosophical paradigm requires both a God and a Devil. Satan is necessary to balance the equation. This group *needs* Basil.
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Rich



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Coastal New England

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank, I appreciate your input, as usual, clear and without degrading commentary.

Basiolsaurus however, I tire of your constant need to revive an argument which has been had, at length. You've made the same statements and I've made the same replies. I don't see the value in going through it all again. Please feel free to reread the dialogue from the Origin of Life Thread if your memory fails.

Let me say this yet again.

I choose to not debate this with you because like Frank, I have precious little time to waste and with you, on this topic, I feel my time is wasted. If there was something new to add, I would relish the opportunity to debate but I made my case a long time ago with you and the other believers on this website seem to either have no desire to argue with you or defend their faith for you. You don't believe in God and I'm really okay with that. Maybe others are too. For me, part of believing in God is allowing others to not and being at peace with that. Can you be at peace with your nonbelief while allowing others to believe?

Rich
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Frank



Joined: 13 May 2005
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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich wrote:
Frank, I appreciate your input, as usual, clear and without degrading commentary.
...snip...
Rich


Well, let's be honest. My response was not completely without degrading commentary. Insulting, anyway, if not actually degrading. I am completely imperfect, just like all of us and capable of being a total shithead at times.

For me, the reality that we (generic use of this word) disagree doesn't mean we hafta be "enemies." My dad is a very religious, politically conservative man. I love him completely and unreservedly despite the fact that I am an atheist who wishes Marxism were a viable political philosophy. How different can two people be, in a socio-religio-political sense? Yet we are as close as peas in a pod, as corn kernels on the cob, as... ahhhh, you get the idea.

I can only speak for me but speaking for myself: I may disagree with most people on this site, indeed with most people in American society when it comes to teleology, epistemology, realpolitik, my weltanschauung vs. theirs, who'd make a competent president, etc. Sometimes I'll have a discussion with someone, sometimes it'll degenerate into an argument with more heat than light, occasionally I'll get so stupid that I'll let it turn really nasty and bitter.

I don't like it when I let that happen. It's not useful, and certainly not pleasant, for anyone. And as we both said, I could be spending that time with my kids, or my wife, or doing something I enjoy.

Pax tecum atque pax vobiscum,

Frank (yeah, I had waaaaay too many Latin classes in school)
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